Can there be another division of India on religious lines?

usha manohar wrote:

vijay wrote:

usha manohar wrote:

A comment gets a comment - Before passing lofty judgments it is better to take a peek at one's own posts and interactions! The height of double standards when it comes to pointing fingers at others , when some unpalatable truth  is mentioned by them !

Kindly point out in which comment of mine have I made personal attack or allegations on you to get such disgusting personal remarks. Also pleade do not be prosecutor and judge.Attack views not person expressing them.

 

I dont see anything disgusting in my comments nor anything personal nor any attack ! At the very beginning I wrote a comment gets a comment which is true, you wrote something and I wrote in response to that, so where does personal attack come ? In fact it came in your comment not mine, so, dont turn the tables against me..

Will you prosecute yourself..? Never. I again ask you to show where have I attacked you in derogatory manner as you have done. Comment gets comment but which comment..? Do not shoot arrows in the dark. 

vijay wrote:

usha manohar wrote:

vijay wrote:

usha manohar wrote:

A comment gets a comment - Before passing lofty judgments it is better to take a peek at one's own posts and interactions! The height of double standards when it comes to pointing fingers at others , when some unpalatable truth  is mentioned by them !

Kindly point out in which comment of mine have I made personal attack or allegations on you to get such disgusting personal remarks. Also pleade do not be prosecutor and judge.Attack views not person expressing them.

 

I dont see anything disgusting in my comments nor anything personal nor any attack ! At the very beginning I wrote a comment gets a comment which is true, you wrote something and I wrote in response to that, so where does personal attack come ? In fact it came in your comment not mine, so, dont turn the tables against me..

Will you prosecute yourself..? Never. I again ask you to show where have I attacked you in derogatory manner as you have done. Comment gets comment but which comment..? Do not shoot arrows in the dark. 

 

There is o derogatory post on any member r shooting arrows in the dark from my side either  if at all it is in general term..You took it personally and  I commented on it, thats all..

We have digressed from the topic> this should be an academic discussion without personal bias. The fact is that people who talk of tolerance refer to tolerance of only Hindus. Nobody talks of Mulsim intolerance. Yes, India can remain united if we agree a) to Sharia for Muslims B) foreget about constitution c) allow Muslims to have own religious schools d) allow Muslims to join ISI and also carry out attacks by local Jihad outfits like IndianMujahaddin e) Give reservation to Muslims including army and many more f) Allow Muslims not to sing Vande matram and other national songs g) confine natonalism only to Hindus.

Yes if all the above are followed, India will remain  as it is and never be a world power. I think Nehru and Congress have a big hand in all this and even Modi cannot clean the Augean stables.

MG Singh wrote:

We have digressed from the topic> this should be an academic discussion without personal bias. The fact is that people who talk of tolerance refer to tolerance of only Hindus. Nobody talks of Mulsim intolerance. Yes, India can remain united if we agree a) to Sharia for Muslims B) foreget about constitution c) allow Muslims to have own religious schools d) allow Muslims to join ISI and also carry out attacks by local Jihad outfits like IndianMujahaddin e) Give reservation to Muslims including army and many more f) Allow Muslims not to sing Vande matram and other national songs g) confine natonalism only to Hindus.

Yes if all the above are followed, India will remain  as it is and never be a world power. I think Nehru and Congress have a big hand in all this and even Modi cannot clean the Augean stables.

That sums up our Sicular society beautifully ! This sort of an attitude hs become so deep rooted that it is not easy o clean it up now and one can see the kind of opposition that comes from mostly Hindus who call themselves rationale , secular blah blah...that it is difficult for Modi to really do anything constructive. But I sincerely wish that they bring in at least a uniform civil code, which takes care of many aspects !

Already alibi are being prepred for failure to fulfil promides. Great supporters, must say. Please come out of this religious divide. Anti Sicularists are severly trapped in the maze of religion biases.

If you do not stop mixing religion with politics and nationalism, there is no way to stop disintegration. Now a senior BJP leadersays that saffron flag was there much before our Tri-color (Tiranga) flag.  so why saffron or Bhagwa not be considered National flag. See the logic. This way, Manusmriti was there much before Indian constitution. why not treat manusmriti as Indian constitution.

I wonder where the RSS/BJP brand of nationalism will lead us to.

http://www.jansatta.com/national/bhagwa-flag-rss-leader-bhaiya-ji-joshi-controversial-comments-on-national-flag-and-national-anthem/82115/?utm_source=JansattaHP&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=slider4referral

Incidentally, minorities will not accept this line. Vande Matram, Bharat mata ki jai and also manusmriti are not acceptable to many. Patriotism or nationalism cannot be measured according to standards of the saffron brigade.  It is so astonishing that some minority youth have been beaten in Delhi for not saying 'jai maataa ki'.  So, is nationalism and worship of goddess same? 

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/love-india-but-only-one-god-in-islam-deobands-fatwa-against-bharat-mata-ki-jai/1/632467.html

Tricolor flag came after the saffron flag - this statement was made by the RSS general secretary Joshi, one needs to be clear while making a statement and get all facts right ! And frankly it could be a fact but has no relevance now since after independence India has the tri color flag ! funnily enough why is the opposition and its supporters so shocked by this, are they so very patriotic  ? they say Vande Mataram will not be accepted by minorities, Bharat mata ki Jai has already attracted a Fatwa,,,but when someone from RSS speaks about the color of the flag that was in existence before independence it become even more controversial, talk about double standards and intolerance of Congress party , opposition and some communal citizens of this country !!!!

The fatwas isued against national slogans are deplorable as they are indicative of a mind set which is not integrative. Similarly the flag remark is needless as it tries to segregate a whole movement that produces it. Why should the intellectuals create such needless issues of discussion which are divisive in nature shows they lack capabilities of higher thinking. The saving grace is that a large numbr of person's from both communities laugh these off and care two hoots about such issues. Yes some are deeply affected, so be it.

I agree some member(s) on this forum are deeply affected by anything Saffron and they have to make much of it ... They make it a point to bring it into every discussion needlessly like it has been done here..

Gk Ajmani@. I have been reading your comments with great interest. What emerges is the Hinduism has many ills, that cannot be denied. You also say that Hindus should be secular. What is secularism? I will remind you that even the USA and UK constitution are based on Christian principles and yet they are secular. ONE law is followed in the land and Muslims accept it. But here you keep saying that Hindus should be secular. I haven't read a sentence about Muslims being secular. Why should the Sharia be followed here ? It's not followed anywhere else( except Muslim nations) and also Turkey(99%Muslim). Probably you would be happy to give 15% reservation to the minority in the army.That is your concept of secularism. This will seriously affect the fighting capability of the sword arm of the .nation> You may not be aware, but in tens of cases, the minority has compromised on battlefield. I won't disclose anything.

I wonder how highly intellectual Hindus get brainwashed. I AM secular and I work many weeks in a Muslim country and have friends who are from minority, but even they don't echo what you keep writing. I really wonder whether you believe in all that you write. I agree Manusmriti should be consigned to flames, but you have no word to write on Sharia. Probably if we follow what you write the constitution should be forgotten. You seem unaware that the rousing cry of " Bharat Mata ki Jai" used by the army as a rally slogan is having a deep schism  as minority troops ( thankfully small in number) are perverse to it.

Another thing I have observed is your deep hatred for RSS, but I do not read any comment about Muslim league, Jammat, and IM. You talk of caste. I am against it and want to destroy it. But are you aware of the deep schism in the Muslim world? between Shia , Sunni, and Ahmediyas? Unlike Hindus, THOUSANDS are killed every month by these sects who attack each other. Please comment on it. 

You are a moderator and you must have read all my articles, here and other sites. You can see I am a nationalist and nothing will make me deviate from my thought. If the USA with a constitution based on Christian principles can be secular, why not India as a Hindu nation be secular? Earlier you were comparing RSS with Fascism. I don't think you have studied what fascism is. I think I have written enough as a friendly discussion> I won't comment more on this topic as it will lead nowhere.  

@ MGSingh: Issues raised above will be answered by Mr Ajmani. I also follow your views and would like to know what aspects of our Constitution are against the principles of our majority religion Hinduism? The constitution has drawn heavily from those of other countries esp. USA. As a proud Hindu if I want my religion to be cleansed of its ills which make it weak and upon doing so it will emerge stronger am I a lesser Hindu than say you who constantly want Muslims to be regulated and treated as second class citizens. The India post 1947 is based on the Constitution but you want it to be based on pre 1947 biases. It is an opportunity to develop a truly secular country where religion is a private affair. It is a challenge. 

This is with reference to M.G. Singh's post partly replied by Vijai. The Muslims in India do not want sharia law. The question of uniform civil law is irrelevant. On all common issues, we have same law applicable to all irrespective of religion. In Manusmriti, there was different punishment for same crime depending on caste of person involved. Even in sharia criminal law, there is no discrimination. I do not support introduction of sharia as well as Manusmriti. No Muslim has demanded introduction of sharia. 

We have to distinguish between common law and personal law. The common law pertains to crimes, property disputes, business transactions. The code of criminal procedure, Indian Penal code, Civil procedure, business law- these are same for all and hence there is already uniform law.

But personal law is different. Personal is really personal and so there is bound to be difference. Personal law is about various rituals on birth, marriage, divorce, succession and other matters concerning community only. There is no uniform civil code even for Hindus. There is Dayabhag in Assam and West Bengal whereas Mitakshra in rest of India. There are also separate law for various tribes. Personal law depends on customs and rituals of a community.  You cannot bring common civil code even for Hindus- not to speak of Muslims.

Incidentally, common civil code, Ram Temple and special status of Jammu & Kashmir were very favorite issues of BJP/ RSS but now as they are in power, they have forgotten these. any way, I welcome this.

Now the question, Why I don't comment on Muslim League.  Now this does not seem relevant being a historic matter only. Presently, there are some Muslim outfits like MIM led by Ovaisi. But Ovaisi has not said anything anti national. His energy is diverted simply to retort to provocation by Hindutva forces.

As regards the plea that India can be secular even as Hindu nation, we must remember that India has very sizable minorities who will not accept this plea. There is also no such need. You can follow your religion personally and worship as you please.  However, if you wish that some religion be state religion, we have already one-- Budddhism- as the national emblem- four lions with words 'Satyamev Jayate'- is from Sarnath.  Practically, you begin even the official function following Hindu ritual like performing Yagna and breaking coco nuts. If you wish you can still believe that there is imprint of Hindu religion in all our activities. even Sonia Gandhi begins her election campaign from temple visit. What else you want. 

Now why RSS is fascist. You need go through 'Bunch of thoughts' and 'We- our nationhood defined' to realize the fascist character of the organization. They are not so much pro Hindu as Anti Muslim, anti Christian, anti Communist and now anti any thing that is progressive and liberal.

The latest wisdom from RSS leadership is that Bhagawa is better our national flag as this was even before Titanga. May be they would make  next statement that Manusmriti is older than current Indian constitution and so why not treat this  as Indian Constitution.    

RSS leadership is absolutely right in his stand that the Saffron flag is older than the tri color since RSS has been in existence since 1925. His statement does not change the realities of today, so why make much of it unless some people see read when they hear saffron !!!

Either you are really naive or think others are stupid not to see the intention behind such observations by such leaders. Every few days they come up with such thoughts and then issue clarifications changing their earlier observations.

I would rather be called naive and as far as others are concerned it is up to them what they choose to believe of an organisation like RSS which is patriotic and is always at the forefront when national tragedies occur, quietly working without hankering after any publicity ( they have been helping out even at Calcutta ) cant be said that of any other organisation which talks big about its achievements, nor did RSS divide India based on religion in 1947...I guess people need to introspect their own preferences before putting down others .Just because a family owned communal party decided to go all out defaming RSS , does not mean the rest of us are blind and deaf !

usha manohar wrote:

I would rather be called naive and as far as others are concerned it is up to them what they choose to believe of an organisation like RSS which is patriotic and is always at the forefront when national tragedies occur, quietly working without hankering after any publicity ( they have been helping out even at Calcutta ) cant be said that of any other organisation which talks big about its achievements, nor did RSS divide India based on religion in 1947...I guess people need to introspect their own preferences before putting down others .Just because a family owned communal party decided to go all out defaming RSS , does not mean the rest of us are blind and deaf !

The RSS is a patriotic organization. I have seen that during the Kargil conflict RSS volunteers helped my squadron boys in everything. It was a great morale boost. My father tells me that in the 65 war with Pakistan the RSS volunteers caried hot food to the trenches of Indian soldiers. Alas, some perverted minds keep on harping and calling a RSS a fascist organization. The fascist theory as practiced under Mussoloni in Italy with the Brown shirts killing all opponents is not RSS way of work. How many know that RSS was allowed by Nehru to do a march past in 1963 during R Day parade.

MG Singh wrote:

usha manohar wrote:

I would rather be called naive and as far as others are concerned it is up to them what they choose to believe of an organisation like RSS which is patriotic and is always at the forefront when national tragedies occur, quietly working without hankering after any publicity ( they have been helping out even at Calcutta ) cant be said that of any other organisation which talks big about its achievements, nor did RSS divide India based on religion in 1947...I guess people need to introspect their own preferences before putting down others .Just because a family owned communal party decided to go all out defaming RSS , does not mean the rest of us are blind and deaf !

The RSS is a patriotic organization. I have seen that during the Kargil conflict RSS volunteers helped my squadron boys in everything. It was a great morale boost. My father tells me that in the 65 war with Pakistan the RSS volunteers caried hot food to the trenches of Indian soldiers. Alas, some perverted minds keep on harping and calling a RSS a fascist organization. The fascist theory as practiced under Mussoloni in Italy with the Brown shirts killing all opponents is not RSS way of work. How many know that RSS was allowed by Nehru to do a march past in 1963 during R Day parade.

Those who Question Rashtriya Swayam Sevaks patriotism are not aware of the facts.. When incessant rains and floods have thrown the life of people to a nightmare, in Chennai not long ago, RSS Swayamsevaks along with the NDRF team carried rescue operations. Not a single Congress member was visible  anywhere in the near vicinity.

 

MG Singh wrote:

usha manohar wrote:

I would rather be called naive and as far as others are concerned it is up to them what they choose to believe of an organisation like RSS which is patriotic and is always at the forefront when national tragedies occur, quietly working without hankering after any publicity ( they have been helping out even at Calcutta ) cant be said that of any other organisation which talks big about its achievements, nor did RSS divide India based on religion in 1947...I guess people need to introspect their own preferences before putting down others .Just because a family owned communal party decided to go all out defaming RSS , does not mean the rest of us are blind and deaf !

The RSS is a patriotic organization. I have seen that during the Kargil conflict RSS volunteers helped my squadron boys in everything. It was a great morale boost. My father tells me that in the 65 war with Pakistan the RSS volunteers caried hot food to the trenches of Indian soldiers. Alas, some perverted minds keep on harping and calling a RSS a fascist organization. The fascist theory as practiced under Mussoloni in Italy with the Brown shirts killing all opponents is not RSS way of work. How many know that RSS was allowed by Nehru to do a march past in 1963 during R Day parade.

 

I know s many RSS members and they are always ready to help out without bothering about religion or caste hen there is a calamity. We had one of the worst Communal riots here when the entire district was shut down and there was curfew all over he place. RSS workers would carry rice and other supplies through country boats and take it to people living in smaller villages, unable to get any supplies. They are respected by all here because they have been the cause of any trouble ..

usha manohar wrote:

MG Singh wrote:

usha manohar wrote:

I would rather be called naive and as far as others are concerned it is up to them what they choose to believe of an organisation like RSS which is patriotic and is always at the forefront when national tragedies occur, quietly working without hankering after any publicity ( they have been helping out even at Calcutta ) cant be said that of any other organisation which talks big about its achievements, nor did RSS divide India based on religion in 1947...I guess people need to introspect their own preferences before putting down others .Just because a family owned communal party decided to go all out defaming RSS , does not mean the rest of us are blind and deaf !

The RSS is a patriotic organization. I have seen that during the Kargil conflict RSS volunteers helped my squadron boys in everything. It was a great morale boost. My father tells me that in the 65 war with Pakistan the RSS volunteers caried hot food to the trenches of Indian soldiers. Alas, some perverted minds keep on harping and calling a RSS a fascist organization. The fascist theory as practiced under Mussoloni in Italy with the Brown shirts killing all opponents is not RSS way of work. How many know that RSS was allowed by Nehru to do a march past in 1963 during R Day parade.

 

I know s many RSS members and they are always ready to help out without bothering about religion or caste hen there is a calamity. We had one of the worst Communal riots here when the entire district was shut down and there was curfew all over he place. RSS workers would carry rice and other supplies through country boats and take it to people living in smaller villages, unable to get any supplies. They are respected by all here because they have been the cause of any trouble ..

Any person who like to criticize, than he/she criticize at any cost. These type of person like to saw only negative things. RSS is big organization. it have lacs members. So it not possible that some mistake never happen. The person who are criticizing Sawaym Sewak, they don't know about their sacrifice. RSS is not capable to pay big amount as stifund to their workers. workers got very small amount. Most of worker, who is called Parchark eat dinner and lunch at the house of other sawaym sewak because they can't afford expenses of their diet.  They spend whole life in this style. 

anil wrote:

usha manohar wrote:

MG Singh wrote:

usha manohar wrote:

I would rather be called naive and as far as others are concerned it is up to them what they choose to believe of an organisation like RSS which is patriotic and is always at the forefront when national tragedies occur, quietly working without hankering after any publicity ( they have been helping out even at Calcutta ) cant be said that of any other organisation which talks big about its achievements, nor did RSS divide India based on religion in 1947...I guess people need to introspect their own preferences before putting down others .Just because a family owned communal party decided to go all out defaming RSS , does not mean the rest of us are blind and deaf !

The RSS is a patriotic organization. I have seen that during the Kargil conflict RSS volunteers helped my squadron boys in everything. It was a great morale boost. My father tells me that in the 65 war with Pakistan the RSS volunteers caried hot food to the trenches of Indian soldiers. Alas, some perverted minds keep on harping and calling a RSS a fascist organization. The fascist theory as practiced under Mussoloni in Italy with the Brown shirts killing all opponents is not RSS way of work. How many know that RSS was allowed by Nehru to do a march past in 1963 during R Day parade.

 

I know s many RSS members and they are always ready to help out without bothering about religion or caste hen there is a calamity. We had one of the worst Communal riots here when the entire district was shut down and there was curfew all over he place. RSS workers would carry rice and other supplies through country boats and take it to people living in smaller villages, unable to get any supplies. They are respected by all here because they have been the cause of any trouble ..

Any person who like to criticize, than he/she criticize at any cost. These type of person like to saw only negative things. RSS is big organization. it have lacs members. So it not possible that some mistake never happen. The person who are criticizing Sawaym Sewak, they don't know about their sacrifice. RSS is not capable to pay big amount as stifund to their workers. workers got very small amount. Most of worker, who is called Parchark eat dinner and lunch at the house of other sawaym sewak because they can't afford expenses of their diet.  They spend whole life in this style. 

 I know. RSS is highly organized group.Our current PM and many Nation loving patriots give credit of their upbringing to the RSS. In the Independence movement in 1930, RSS organized lectures for the common masses on the need of Independence. In Sino Indian war,RSS worked selflessly and helped the wounded soldiers to the relief camp and provided basic needs.