Yesterday a lone Muslim gunman shot dead 4 marines at 2 naval establishment in USA. Such cases are galore and one can recollect the massacre at Fort Hood when a Muslim major gunned down 21 servicemen. We are not imune in India and in 1965 war an order to disperse fighters at Kalaikunda was ignored and 8 fighters were destroyed on ground. A similar danger was averted in 1971 war when jet bombers were NOT comauflaged and left as sitting ducks to PAF in Agra. One can also recollect the famous Indian spy mission of 1959 when info was leaked to Pak and the canberra was shot down. The government now has a concientious decision to have no minority in RAW. Is it correct.?
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MG Singh wrote:Muslims can be loyal soldiers. Please remember that the army of the last Hindu King of Delhi Samrat Vikramaditya Hemu had a full complement of Afghan Muslims soldiers who saw him win 22 battles against the Mughals on the trot, till he was defeated at Panipat by Akbar by chance. But perhaps that analogy may not be applicable now as the powers that be are allowing only token representation in army. But it is also a fact that most Muslims do not want to serve in indian armed forces. I have given my experience above as a recruiting officer.
At least their representation in the police force is good with Gujarat topping the list ...
usha manohar wrote:MG Singh wrote:Muslims can be loyal soldiers. Please remember that the army of the last Hindu King of Delhi Samrat Vikramaditya Hemu had a full complement of Afghan Muslims soldiers who saw him win 22 battles against the Mughals on the trot, till he was defeated at Panipat by Akbar by chance. But perhaps that analogy may not be applicable now as the powers that be are allowing only token representation in army. But it is also a fact that most Muslims do not want to serve in indian armed forces. I have given my experience above as a recruiting officer.
At least their representation in the police force is good with Gujarat topping the list ...
The latest figures of total police men who are Muslims in India is just 6%. In case the state of Jammu and Kashmir is taken out the % drops to 4%. Home ministry has said that most Muslims do not want to join Police Considering the population is 20% and growing the representation of of Muslims is poor.
I appreciate @MGSINGH for returning back and making contributions. I recently read that it was the peasant community which used to join the army in large numbers after the farming season was over during the pre British period.During the British period this aspect was further refined by forming caste based regiments. A rerusal would show that these were almost all based on land holding communities again predominantly involved in farming. Another reason for them to join the army is because growing number of children cannot be supported by limited land ownership. The upper castes would hardly join the army but for some who would hold high posts. This practice continues today also, though the other communities are joining esp in the technical areas. Muslim land owning areas went to Pakistan. The Muslims in India were predominantly non land holding and were more of artisans with no fighting traditions. Thus in recruitment drives you find less percent of Muslims.It is not that they do not want to join, but they are able to earn through their skills. Loyalty is not a factor. It is a perceived factor of pseudo nationalists who believe that only persons of one community are patriotic.I have also been a recruiter for my company and observed increased applications from Muslims as their education levels went up and spread in their community. So it is a matter of time before they also will join the mainstream in larger numbers .
vijay wrote:I appreciate @MGSINGH for returning back and making contributions. I recently read that it was the peasant community which used to join the army in large numbers after the farming season was over during the pre British period.During the British period this aspect was further refined by forming caste based regiments. A rerusal would show that these were almost all based on land holding communities again predominantly involved in farming. Another reason for them to join the army is because growing number of children cannot be supported by limited land ownership. The upper castes would hardly join the army but for some who would hold high posts. This practice continues today also, though the other communities are joining esp in the technical areas. Muslim land owning areas went to Pakistan. The Muslims in India were predominantly non land holding and were more of artisans with no fighting traditions. Thus in recruitment drives you find less percent of Muslims.It is not that they do not want to join, but they are able to earn through
their skills. Loyalty is not a factor. It is a perceived factor of pseudo nationalists who believe that only persons of one community are patriotic.I have also been a recruiter for my company and observed increased applications from Muslims as their education levels went up and spread in their community. So it is a matter of time before they also will join the mainstream in larger numbers .
@ Vijay. Thank you. But I will say this topic has diverse dimensions and so many facets. It is also a fact that the British created the concept of a martial class and confined recruitment to them. Thus there was no Bengal or Gujarat regiment. Right or wrong, Pandit Nehru accepted this classification. Muslims are also considered very martial especially the Punjabi's. Thus the British Created the Punjab regiments which were predominant Muslim. All these regiments went to Pakistan.
When I was with the US Air Force at their North American Air defence centre I came to know that in the US armed forces some aspects of Muslims go against the culture of a soldier. Many Muslims would fight willingly in wars like Vietnam but had grave reservations in fighting their brethren in Iraq. and later afghanistan. This led to attacks by Muslim soldiers on their comrades in what is called fratricide. So it's not a simple issue. one has to listen to mr Owasi of the MIML from Hyderabad to get an entirely different picture.
My point is that one can't simplify this or say " all will be well". It does not happen in an advanced country like USA and India is far behind.
I am a realist and having commanded men of all classes , I will just like to bring a point out.noted by the US army that in actual battle many Muslim soldiers insisted on doing Namaz 5 times, putting the safety of the fellow soldiers in jeopardy. They also insisted on fasting during ramadan and this again affected army discipline. China took a step and banned namaz and fasting during ramadan. however Chine does not recruit any Muslim in PLA( They are a sizeable lot in Sinkiang). This is a complex topic and has nothing to do with Hindutva or any thing like it. It is a problem with Muslim psyche and there are no clear cut answers.
One last point, the british NEVER used Muslim regiments in the Afghan wars or operations in the north west frontier which was handled only by Sikh and Gurkha troops. Why ? the answer is obvious.
MG Singh wrote:I am a realist and having commanded men of all classes , I will just like to bring a point out.noted by the US army that in actual battle many Muslim soldiers insisted on doing Namaz 5 times, putting the safety of the fellow soldiers in jeopardy. They also insisted on fasting during ramadan and this again affected army discipline. China took a step and banned namaz and fasting during ramadan. however Chine does not recruit any Muslim in PLA( They are a sizeable lot in Sinkiang). This is a complex topic and has nothing to do with Hindutva or any thing like it. It is a problem with Muslim psyche and there are no clear cut answers.
One last point, the british NEVER used Muslim regiments in the Afghan wars or operations in the north west frontier which was handled only by Sikh and Gurkha troops. Why ? the answer is obvious.
True, for a devout muslim his religion comes above everything including his country, as you rightly said it is the psyhe ....I guess this is one of the major reasons why they do not join army.
It is wrong to say that Muslims do not join the army as again stated by @Usha. They too are joining the army like others. @Rambaby has rightly said that there is difference between being devout and being fanatic. @MGSingh says that Chinese have banned namaz and fssting during ramadan and they also do not recruit them in the PLA. After all the Chinese have banned all religions including Buddhism, why the Muslim aspect is being highlighted. Tactically the British not using the Muslim regiments in Afghanistan is a wise and practical decision. After all when Operation Bluestar was carried out did not some sikh regiment soldiers protest and even march towards Amritsar. As secular Indians we understand their feelings and Indira paid with her life. These are realities which have to be factored in in statecraft. Banning or casting aspertions are not the answer.
vijay wrote:It is wrong to say that Muslims do not join the army as again stated by @Usha. They too are joining the army like others. @Rambaby has rightly said that there is difference between being devout and being fanatic. @MGSingh says that Chinese have banned namaz and fssting during ramadan and they also do not recruit them in the PLA. After all the Chinese have banned all religions including Buddhism, why the Muslim aspect is being highlighted. Tactically the British not using the Muslim regiments in Afghanistan is a wise and practical decision. After all when Operation Bluestar was carried out did not some sikh regiment soldiers protest and even march towards Amritsar. As secular Indians we understand their feelings and Indira paid with her life. These are realities which have to be factored in in statecraft. Banning or casting aspertions are not the answer.
.....@ MGSingh ...You are right. I was recruiting officer for a ground tenure and I found that only 1-2% Muslim candidates turned up for selection for IAF. For every 100 candidates only 1 to 2 were Muslim.I was always surprised at the poor turn out of Muslims for recruitment That is the reason that representation of Muslim in Indian Air Force is just 1%.
Getting into the army is much tougher for Muslims as the Infantry regiments are all caste based ( Higher castes) and no Muslim can join them. They can only join the arms and composite regiments
@ Usha I was not aware of that fact, seems a bit unfair to them... In my city there are a few muslims posted at the Siachen border, not sure in what capacity.One of them was killed recently in firing from across the border ! In a way it silenced the many of their leaders in that region who were openly inciting the masses and showing support for Pakistan ......
Before you draw conclusions and state it here, you need to look through posts and be sure ( which I have copy pasted above from page 2 of the discussion)...And most of us are aware of the difference between what is devout and what is fanaticism, thank you ..
vijay wrote:It is wrong to say that Muslims do not join the army as again stated by @Usha. They too are joining the army like others. @Rambaby has rightly said that there is difference between being devout and being fanatic. @MGSingh says that Chinese have banned namaz and fssting during ramadan and they also do not recruit them in the PLA. After all the Chinese have banned all religions including Buddhism, why the Muslim aspect is being highlighted. Tactically the British not using the Muslim regiments in Afghanistan is a wise and practical decision. After all when Operation Bluestar was carried out did not some sikh regiment soldiers protest and even march towards Amritsar. As secular Indians we understand their feelings and Indira paid with her life. These are realities which have to be factored in in statecraft. Banning or casting aspertions are not the answer.
The Chinese have not banned Buddhism.Their President who came to India also is a Buddhist. I had visited China last year and there are plenty of Buddhist and temples dedicated to confucianism there. Their treatment of Muslims stands out and only Turkey has guts to oppose them
Many of the participants bring Hindutva into this particular thread, which is irrelevant. We are discussing the actions in battle of a particular group or sect. By just stating all are equal and we should be secular or difference is in devout and fanaticism is neither here or there. I wonder if people read the entire thread and points raised ? At places its a question of morale of a fighting group. There are always traitors in all classes.Its there from history,but sometimes a class acts in a way or the majority of that sect acts then it is food for thought.
A good example on Sikh psyche was mentioned by Vijay, but there is a difference compared to the other minority as almost 12 to 15% of teh army is Sikh and we have lately had 2 army Chiefs who are Sikhs.At any given time almost 10-12 senior commanders are sikh while only 1 odd may be from teh other community. There is no discrimination against them, but they do not want to join the army. We can take a lesson from US army.
Going through all the posts of thinking members
I wonder aloud if it is at all logical to
conclude that Muslim psyche is shaped
by their religion leading to developing
general apathy to join military services.
I honestly believe it is too broad and too
generalizing a proposition. It owes to a
host of both historical as well as sociological
variables which can throw greater light
on this phenomenon. We have at the best
some empirical data which need to be
validated by scrupulous research and its
authentication. It would be not scientific
to go by the findings of any in individual
,however intimate and first hand his or her
knowledge might be about the subject.
Muslims are underrepresented in other
spheres also which points to their backwardness
Another important aspect which is a
matter of introspection for us: Has the
Indian State done every thing and all
it could to reach out to the community
to attract them to the military service
when their record of service in this regard
,has been as immaculate as any. Comp
arison with Sikh community is not very
apt.
@ Chinmoy. You have raised some good points. Probably you have a point that the state itself has not reached out to minorities. But I feel that minorities feel insecure in a nation where they are in a minority or not the rulers. In any predominant muslim society like Iran or Pakistan there is no shortage of recruits for army or police. But in any other society like Burma, Lanka and also India there are grave reservations among this community. They are insular and dont come out. It is also in USA where it is seen that pan religious thought is paramount and not loyalty to US constitution.
What is the basis of a seperatism in Kashmir? There are so many deeper questions, but facts have to faced and not covered with cliches and inane statements. I do agree with you to a degree, but it takes 2 hands to clap
There is question of Muslims not joing army. A member has aptly pointed out that the infantry regiments are caste based. Some are composite like Punjab Regiment comprising of sikh and Dogra. There is small percentage of 'other Indian castes' also in every regiment. But mostly, a Dogra regement will employ dogra, sikh Regiment sikha, Gurkha Regiment Gurkhas and so on. These regiments were formed on basis of the notion of martial race. There were some Muslim martial races also that have been transferred to Pakistan. Punjab Regiment also had some battalions of Muslim Punjabis but these are also now in Pakistan.
Any one including Muslim may join the non infantry regiments like army Service Corps, Army Medical Corps, Signal Corps. .
Gulshan Kumar Ajmani wrote:There is question of Muslims not joing army. A member has aptly pointed out that the infantry regiments are caste based. Some are composite like Punjab Regiment comprising of sikh and Dogra. There is small percentage of 'other Indian castes' also in every regiment. But mostly, a Dogra regement will employ dogra, sikh Regiment sikha, Gurkha Regiment Gurkhas and so on. These regiments were formed on basis of the notion of martial race. There were some Muslim martial races also that have been transferred to Pakistan. Punjab Regiment also had some battalions of Muslim Punjabis but these are also now in Pakistan.
Any one including Muslim may join the non infantry regiments like army Service Corps, Army Medical Corps, Signal Corps.
Thank you for the updates. Some hitherto unknown things I came to know.
In Communist countries religion is not officially recognized as it goes against their philosophy and that is why officially China has no religion. It is a different matter that Buddhist temples exist in China. Muslims in India are usually earning thru skills running in their families like weaving, plumbing , carpenting etc.. The muslims in India also keep away from the army as members of similar professions from other religions. As stated earlier the army heavily draws from landed class and muslims are not in this class but more in artisan class.Their numbers in Air Force and Navy will be still less as they call for higher degree of education then required by the army. Minorities everywhere are at the receiving end and to some extent it does act as an inhibiting factor in their participation in all activiites as they fear discrimination which to some extent does take place.
vijay wrote:In Communist countries religion is not officially recognized as it goes against their philosophy and that is why officially China has no religion. It is a different matter that Buddhist temples exist in China. Muslims in India are usually earning thru skills running in their families like weaving, plumbing , carpenting etc.. The muslims in India also keep away from the army as members of similar professions from other religions. As stated earlier the army heavily draws from landed class and muslims are not in this class but more in artisan class.Their numbers in Air Force and Navy will be still less as they call for higher degree of education then required by the army. Minorities everywhere are at the receiving end and to some extent it does act as an inhibiting factor in their participation in all activiites as they fear discrimination which to some extent does take place.
Generally I will agree with you. But in combat the experience of the US army of Muslims facing their co religionists in battle is not a happy experience. As I have written earlier the British never utilised Muslim troops in battles in Afghan wars and wars in NW Frontier where they utilised sikhs and Gurkhas. It is a moot point how a pure Muslim regiment will act when facing co religionists in a war with say Pakistan. Indian army cannot take that risk.
On going through various posts and write ups on the subject of why there are hardly any muslims serving in the army, I came across a very interesting observation by a commentator which of course is the personal view , since in a Hindu dominant society it is natural to use such names
..The strong sense of Hindu dominance is evident from the names of weaponry that Indian military assigns to them. For example indian missiles are named on hardcore Hindu figures such as Agni (missile), Pirthvi (missile), Arjun (tank), tejas (fighter jet), naag (missile), dhruv (helicopter), and many more. You will not find any muslim or for that matter christian or sikh name based weapon or squadron in Indian hindu driven military.
MG Singh wrote:vijay wrote:In Communist countries religion is not officially recognized as it goes against their philosophy and that is why officially China has no religion. It is a different matter that Buddhist temples exist in China. Muslims in India are usually earning thru skills running in their families like weaving, plumbing , carpenting etc.. The muslims in India also keep away from the army as members of similar professions from other religions. As stated earlier the army heavily draws from landed class and muslims are not in this class but more in artisan class.Their numbers in Air Force and Navy will be still less as they call for higher degree of education then required by the army. Minorities everywhere are at the receiving end and to some extent it does act as an inhibiting factor in their participation in all activiites as they fear discrimination which to some extent does take place.
The possibility does not arise now, because no longer are caste or religion based regiments being formed. the existing ones also are now mixed regiments.
Generally I will agree with you. But in combat the experience of the US army of Muslims facing their co religionists in battle is not a happy experience. As I have written earlier the British never utilised Muslim troops in battles in Afghan wars and wars in NW Frontier where they utilised sikhs and Gurkhas. It is a moot point how a pure Muslim regiment will act when facing co religionists in a war with say Pakistan. Indian army cannot take that risk.
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MG Singh
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