MG Singh wrote:

Muslims can be loyal soldiers. Please remember that the army of the last Hindu King of Delhi Samrat Vikramaditya Hemu had a full complement of Afghan Muslims soldiers who saw him win 22 battles against the Mughals on the trot, till he was defeated at Panipat by Akbar by chance. But perhaps that analogy may not be applicable now as the powers that be  are allowing only token representation in army.  But it  is also a fact that most Muslims do not want to serve in indian armed forces. I have given my experience above as a recruiting officer.

At least their representation in the police force is good with Gujarat topping the list ...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Gujarat-tops-states-in-number-of-Muslim-policemen/articleshow/17185874.cms

usha manohar wrote:

MG Singh wrote:

Muslims can be loyal soldiers. Please remember that the army of the last Hindu King of Delhi Samrat Vikramaditya Hemu had a full complement of Afghan Muslims soldiers who saw him win 22 battles against the Mughals on the trot, till he was defeated at Panipat by Akbar by chance. But perhaps that analogy may not be applicable now as the powers that be  are allowing only token representation in army.  But it  is also a fact that most Muslims do not want to serve in indian armed forces. I have given my experience above as a recruiting officer.

At least their representation in the police force is good with Gujarat topping the list ...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Gujarat-tops-states-in-number-of-Muslim-policemen/articleshow/17185874.cms

 

The latest figures of total police men who are Muslims in India is just 6%. In case the state of Jammu and Kashmir is taken out the % drops to 4%. Home ministry has said that most Muslims do not want to join Police  Considering the population is 20% and growing  the representation of of Muslims is poor. 

I appreciate @MGSINGH for returning back and  making contributions. I recently read that it was the peasant community which used to join the army in large numbers after the farming season was over during the pre British period.During the British period this aspect was further refined by forming caste based regiments. A rerusal would show that these were almost all based on land holding communities again predominantly involved in farming. Another reason for them to join the army is because growing number of children cannot be supported by limited land ownership. The upper castes would hardly join the army but for some who would hold high posts. This practice continues today also, though the other communities are joining esp in the technical areas. Muslim land owning areas went to Pakistan. The Muslims in India were predominantly non land holding and were more of artisans with no fighting traditions.  Thus in recruitment drives you find less percent of Muslims.It is not that they do not  want to join, but they are able to earn through their skills. Loyalty is not a factor. It is a perceived factor of pseudo nationalists who believe that only persons of one community are patriotic.I have also been a recruiter for my company and observed increased applications from Muslims as their education levels went up and spread in their community. So it is a matter of time before they also will join the mainstream in larger numbers .

vijay wrote:

I appreciate @MGSINGH for returning back and  making contributions. I recently read that it was the peasant community which used to join the army in large numbers after the farming season was over during the pre British period.During the British period this aspect was further refined by forming caste based regiments. A rerusal would show that these were almost all based on land holding communities again predominantly involved in farming. Another reason for them to join the army is because growing number of children cannot be supported by limited land ownership. The upper castes would hardly join the army but for some who would hold high posts. This practice continues today also, though the other communities are joining esp in the technical areas. Muslim land owning areas went to Pakistan. The Muslims in India were predominantly non land holding and were more of artisans with no fighting traditions.  Thus in recruitment drives you find less percent of Muslims.It is not that they do not  want to join, but they are able to earn through their skills. Loyalty is not a factor. It is a perceived factor of pseudo nationalists who believe that only persons of one community are patriotic.I have also been a recruiter for my company and observed increased applications from Muslims as their education levels went up and spread in their community. So it is a matter of time before they also will join the mainstream in larger numbers .

@ Vijay. Thank you. But I will say this topic has diverse dimensions and so many facets. It is also a fact that the British created the concept of a martial class and confined recruitment to them. Thus there was no Bengal or  Gujarat regiment. Right or wrong, Pandit Nehru accepted this classification. Muslims are also considered very martial especially the Punjabi's. Thus the British Created the Punjab regiments which were predominant Muslim. All these regiments went to Pakistan.

 When I was with the US Air Force at their North American Air defence centre I came to know that in the US armed forces  some aspects of Muslims go against the culture of a soldier. Many Muslims would fight willingly in wars like Vietnam but had grave reservations in fighting their brethren in Iraq. and later afghanistan. This led to attacks by Muslim soldiers on their comrades in what is called fratricide.   So it's not a simple issue. one has to listen to mr Owasi of the MIML from Hyderabad to get an entirely different picture.  

My point is that one can't simplify this  or say " all will be well". It does not happen in an advanced country like USA and India is far behind.

I am a realist and having commanded men of all classes , I will just like to bring a point  out.noted by the US army  that in actual battle many Muslim soldiers insisted on doing Namaz 5 times, putting the safety of the fellow soldiers in jeopardy. They also insisted on fasting during ramadan and this again affected army discipline.  China took a step and banned namaz and fasting during ramadan. however Chine does not recruit any Muslim in PLA( They are a sizeable lot in Sinkiang). This is a complex topic and has nothing to do with  Hindutva or any thing like it. It is a problem with Muslim psyche and there are no clear cut answers.

One last point, the british NEVER used Muslim regiments in the Afghan wars or operations in the north west frontier which was handled only by Sikh and Gurkha troops.  Why ? the answer is obvious.

MG Singh wrote:

I am a realist and having commanded men of all classes , I will just like to bring a point  out.noted by the US army  that in actual battle many Muslim soldiers insisted on doing Namaz 5 times, putting the safety of the fellow soldiers in jeopardy. They also insisted on fasting during ramadan and this again affected army discipline.  China took a step and banned namaz and fasting during ramadan. however Chine does not recruit any Muslim in PLA( They are a sizeable lot in Sinkiang). This is a complex topic and has nothing to do with  Hindutva or any thing like it. It is a problem with Muslim psyche and there are no clear cut answers.

One last point, the british NEVER used Muslim regiments in the Afghan wars or operations in the north west frontier which was handled only by Sikh and Gurkha troops.  Why ? the answer is obvious.

True, for a devout muslim his religion comes above everything including his country, as you rightly said it is the psyhe ....I guess this is one of the major reasons why they do not join army.

Being devout is not a crime. As long as one is not a fanatic it's Ok. It's the fanaticism  that is a hazard to any country irrespective of the religion.I don't admire or appreciate Hindu religious fanatics. Wisdom lies in mutual  honoring of the respective religions.

It is wrong to say that Muslims do not join the army as again stated by @Usha. They too are joining the army like others. @Rambaby has rightly said that there is difference between being devout and being fanatic. @MGSingh says that Chinese have banned namaz and fssting during ramadan and they also do not recruit them in the PLA. After all the Chinese have banned all religions including Buddhism, why the Muslim aspect is being highlighted. Tactically the British not using the Muslim regiments in Afghanistan is a wise and practical decision. After all when Operation Bluestar was carried out did not some sikh regiment soldiers protest and even march towards Amritsar. As secular Indians we understand their feelings and Indira paid with her life. These are realities which have to be factored in in statecraft. Banning or casting aspertions are not the answer. 

vijay wrote:

It is wrong to say that Muslims do not join the army as again stated by @Usha. They too are joining the army like others. @Rambaby has rightly said that there is difference between being devout and being fanatic. @MGSingh says that Chinese have banned namaz and fssting during ramadan and they also do not recruit them in the PLA. After all the Chinese have banned all religions including Buddhism, why the Muslim aspect is being highlighted. Tactically the British not using the Muslim regiments in Afghanistan is a wise and practical decision. After all when Operation Bluestar was carried out did not some sikh regiment soldiers protest and even march towards Amritsar. As secular Indians we understand their feelings and Indira paid with her life. These are realities which have to be factored in in statecraft. Banning or casting aspertions are not the answer. 

 .....@ MGSingh ...You are right. I was recruiting officer for a ground tenure and I found that only 1-2% Muslim  candidates turned up for selection for IAF.  For every 100 candidates only 1 to 2 were Muslim.I was always surprised at the poor turn out of Muslims for recruitment That is the reason that representation of Muslim in Indian Air Force is just 1%.

Getting into the army is much tougher for Muslims as the Infantry regiments are all caste based ( Higher castes) and no Muslim can join them. They can only join the arms and composite regiments 

@ Usha I was not aware of that fact, seems a bit unfair to them... In my city there are a few muslims posted at the Siachen border, not sure in what capacity.One of them was killed recently in firing from across the border ! In a way it silenced the many of their leaders in that region who were openly inciting the masses and showing support for Pakistan ......

Before you draw conclusions and state it here, you need to look through posts and be sure ( which I have copy pasted above from page 2 of the discussion)...And most of us are aware of the difference between what is devout and what is fanaticism, thank you ..

vijay wrote:

It is wrong to say that Muslims do not join the army as again stated by @Usha. They too are joining the army like others. @Rambaby has rightly said that there is difference between being devout and being fanatic. @MGSingh says that Chinese have banned namaz and fssting during ramadan and they also do not recruit them in the PLA. After all the Chinese have banned all religions including Buddhism, why the Muslim aspect is being highlighted. Tactically the British not using the Muslim regiments in Afghanistan is a wise and practical decision. After all when Operation Bluestar was carried out did not some sikh regiment soldiers protest and even march towards Amritsar. As secular Indians we understand their feelings and Indira paid with her life. These are realities which have to be factored in in statecraft. Banning or casting aspertions are not the answer. 

The Chinese have not banned Buddhism.Their President who came to India also is a Buddhist. I had visited China last year and there are plenty of Buddhist and temples dedicated to confucianism there. Their treatment of Muslims stands out and only Turkey has guts to oppose them