Government of people or Rama Bhakats?

@Kalyani

You are absolutely right in blaming the Congress Party for the fiasco on this score. But that should in way lead or mislead us into glorifying the BJP - the present avataar of the erstwhile Jan Sangh - as a party committed to gender equality and champion of upholding women's rights. The present reversal of roles or stands that we witness today among political is a rotten product of sheer shameless opportunism.What about its stand on the hapless widows of Vrindaban, the murderous decisions of village councils? It seizes upon cases when minorities are to score political points. The its MP from Mathura the noted actress Hemamalini made moronically hurtful comments on these hapless widows. Now coming to Nehru's pusillanimity in reforms of personal laws when confronted by the venerable socialist leader J.B.Kripalini who on the floor of parliament thundered that 'you must bring it also for the Muslim community.Take it from me that the Muslim community is prepared to have it but you are not brave enough to do it'. Nehru's ambiguity, indecisiveness and verbal jugglery proved very dear one for the country in relation to other issues including this one. He was on record saying 'I should like a civil code which applies to everybody but 'wisdom hinders'! Whose wisdom was he talking about? Should such wisdom or lack of it have been to override the constituional mandate?

suni51 wrote:

Gulshan Kumar Ajmani wrote:

I agree with Chinmoy and others that majority is basis of democracy.  Majority is of different kinds.  Majority based on thought/ opinion is fluctuating and represents public opinion. Nothing wrong with this. Majority view is that holds authority in democracy. But then there is majority or minority based on sectional and community interests. This sort of majority or minority is of permanent nature. The so called conversions and ghar vapasi are intended to disturb the existing conditions based on religious community. In this context also, majority matters more. After all, in system of universal adult franchise, majority rules- be this based on opinion, thought or sheer numbers of a community.

Here is the issue of minority rights. Majority cannot oppress minority. This is also in company law. So far as majority rule is in interest of all citizens, all is well. Oppression of minority community by majority in any manner is negation of democracy. Not only majority rule but also equality before law, protection of citizenship rights of all irrespective of community, caste and gender are bedrock of any democracy, any civil society. It is in this context that secularism and socialism gain significance.  

 

A very simple question sir, does this minority right apply in India only or any other countries in our neighborhood have any care for this. Leave apart countries but in our own country where Hindus are minority groups what do you suggest for their welfare. Why is all the emphasis on one particular community that otherwise is the majority all over the world and clearly breaking all the rules of humanity.  

 

Everywhere suppression of minority is bad. We can only exercise moral pressure and UNO may take appropriate action where minority community is suppressed by various means. India can also raise its voice in UNO in this regard. Possibly, Hindus have not been treated properly in some parts of India as well. For example, Kashmiri Pandits are living as refugees in delhi and elsewhere. Government of India needs to take appropriate steps in this matter.     

 

 

Gulshan Kumar Ajmani wrote:

suni51 wrote:

Gulshan Kumar Ajmani wrote:

I agree with Chinmoy and others that majority is basis of democracy.  Majority is of different kinds.  Majority based on thought/ opinion is fluctuating and represents public opinion. Nothing wrong with this. Majority view is that holds authority in democracy. But then there is majority or minority based on sectional and community interests. This sort of majority or minority is of permanent nature. The so called conversions and ghar vapasi are intended to disturb the existing conditions based on religious community. In this context also, majority matters more. After all, in system of universal adult franchise, majority rules- be this based on opinion, thought or sheer numbers of a community.

Here is the issue of minority rights. Majority cannot oppress minority. This is also in company law. So far as majority rule is in interest of all citizens, all is well. Oppression of minority community by majority in any manner is negation of democracy. Not only majority rule but also equality before law, protection of citizenship rights of all irrespective of community, caste and gender are bedrock of any democracy, any civil society. It is in this context that secularism and socialism gain significance.  

 

A very simple question sir, does this minority right apply in India only or any other countries in our neighborhood have any care for this. Leave apart countries but in our own country where Hindus are minority groups what do you suggest for their welfare. Why is all the emphasis on one particular community that otherwise is the majority all over the world and clearly breaking all the rules of humanity.  

 

Everywhere suppression of minority is bad. We can only exercise moral pressure and UNO may take appropriate action where minority community is suppressed by various means. India can also raise its voice in UNO in this regard. Possibly, Hindus have not been treated properly in some parts of India as well. For example, Kashmiri Pandits are living as refugees in delhi and elsewhere. Government of India needs to take appropriate steps in this matter.    

 

Probably the world is waking up now under the guidance of King of Jordan and Prez Obama to teach them proper lesson which they should have learned way before. They have started to believe they are here to rule over the world and everything is fair in the process, including increasing own population, killing others and even kidnapping women for the purpose. Human right and they do not see each other properly where might is right in any or every case.   

 

 

 

Those who are targeting the minority community for many ills are not offering any solution. Chinmoy states that in democracy majority is the basis for decision making. Fair enough, the decision to be a secular country was also taken by a majority. It was enshrined in the constitution. Should it now be changed. Suni51 repeatedly informs that countries around us are not secular. So should we also become non secular like them and become chaotic or set an example for them to follow.The minority community in India is not a monolithic community and is  divided world over. Fringe elements and their supporters should not be allowed to succeed irrespective of which religion they belong to as otherwise India will be the loser.

vijay wrote:

Those who are targeting the minority community for many ills are not offering any solution. Chinmoy states that in democracy majority is the basis for decision making. Fair enough, the decision to be a secular country was also taken by a majority. It was enshrined in the constitution. Should it now be changed. Suni51 repeatedly informs that countries around us are not secular. So should we also become non secular like them and become chaotic or set an example for them to follow.The minority community in India is not a monolithic community and is  divided world over. Fringe elements and their supporters should not be allowed to succeed irrespective of which religion they belong to as otherwise India will be the loser.

 

So we should lose our identity in the name of secularism?

Wait and watch, now Imam has issued Fatwa so be ready to ruled by IMAM BHAKTA in place of RAM BHAKTA. 

 

Talking about minority rights where does one put a stop? France has banned head gears in public places and brought in other immigration policies - Germany, Switzerland and other European countries too are planning to follow this in the near future.Does that mean that they are not democratic? They definitely are democratic and looking after the larger interest of the country and are bent on curbing terrorism.We too need to have some rules that are strictly implemented and followed .

China has taken several steps including ban on Burka and beard in particular areas. They have clearly stated Burka is not accepted as it helps terrorism. There is no need to say one child formula is applicable for all citizens in China irrespective of religion one follows. Only India is afraid of applying any restriction on population explosion which is sending demography out of proportion. 

I think any comparison with countries which have earned notoriety in meting out a thoroughly barbatic treatment to members of other religions is not warranted here. These are failed nations. If India commands respect in the comity of nations it is because of her secular credentials. Mr Vijay talks about majority having accepted secularism. That is true. The only point of our difference is that this majority was not that of the majority community but one which had representations from all.Thus upholding and strengthening secular traditions and practices the leaders of all communities and faiths have a sacred duty. We may not accept the idea of Hindu identity for all but an Indian identity strictly based on citizenship as defined in the statute along with constitutional provisions. Our Constitution - that visionary document - provides the greatest protective shield for their rights and they must submit themselves to the primacy of constitutional not their archaic personal laws. India is not a banana republic.Our legislators may have disappointed us but we have an independent judiciary and a professional army and fairly enlightened press to take care of any mischief in this regard. For India embracing secularism was or is not a matter of choice but one of compulsion.The moment it is gone it would be all over for us.

Please read the line beginning with "we may not accept....." with the following ' is a must".

 

 

 

chinmoymukherjee wrote:

I think any comparison with countries which have earned notoriety in meting out a thoroughly barbatic treatment to members of other religions is not warranted here. These are failed nations. If India commands respect in the comity of nations it is because of her secular credentials. Mr Vijay talks about majority having accepted secularism. That is true. The only point of our difference is that this majority was not that of the majority community but one which had representations from all.Thus upholding and strengthening secular traditions and practices the leaders of all communities and faiths have a sacred duty. We may not accept the idea of Hindu identity for all but an Indian identity strictly based on citizenship as defined in the statute along with constitutional provisions. Our Constitution - that visionary document - provides the greatest protective shield for their rights and they must submit themselves to the primacy of constitutional not their archaic personal laws. India is not a banana republic.Our legislators may have disappointed us but we have an independent judiciary and a professional army and fairly enlightened press to take care of any mischief in this regard. For India embracing secularism was or is not a matter of choice but one of compulsion.The moment it is gone it would be all over for us.

 

Then what is the issue. Why are fringe elements being seen as saviours by many and why is there non secular logic being accepted by even many well off and educated people. Fringe elements are in all communities.

 

The issue at stake has been crystal clear to any discerning eye and a probing mind. It very much revolves around the extent and degree of influence that fringe elements have been perniciously allowed to exercise on the Muslim community and the same can't be said about other communities.

suni51 wrote:

vijay wrote:

Those who are targeting the minority community for many ills are not offering any solution. Chinmoy states that in democracy majority is the basis for decision making. Fair enough, the decision to be a secular country was also taken by a majority. It was enshrined in the constitution. Should it now be changed. Suni51 repeatedly informs that countries around us are not secular. So should we also become non secular like them and become chaotic or set an example for them to follow.The minority community in India is not a monolithic community and is  divided world over. Fringe elements and their supporters should not be allowed to succeed irrespective of which religion they belong to as otherwise India will be the loser.

 

So we should lose our identity in the name of secularism?

Wait and watch, now Imam has issued Fatwa so be ready to ruled by IMAM BHAKTA in place of RAM BHAKTA. 

 

If I understand you correctly the only Ram Bhaktas are the BJP. Rest all are not Ram bhaktas. So  Kejriwal who I thought was a rambhakta was being supported by the Imam (unsolicited) now turns out that Kejriwal is ImamBhakta. Identity crisis at its best!!

 

chinmoymukherjee wrote:

The issue at stake has been crystal clear to any discerning eye and a probing mind. It very much revolves around the extent and degree of influence that fringe elements have been perniciously allowed to exercise on the Muslim community and the same can't be said about other communities.

 

For a change let us look inward at the discrimination and oppressive practices in the majority community before trying to cleanse the minority community. It will be a great service to millions.

 

vijay wrote:

suni51 wrote:

vijay wrote:

Those who are targeting the minority community for many ills are not offering any solution. Chinmoy states that in democracy majority is the basis for decision making. Fair enough, the decision to be a secular country was also taken by a majority. It was enshrined in the constitution. Should it now be changed. Suni51 repeatedly informs that countries around us are not secular. So should we also become non secular like them and become chaotic or set an example for them to follow.The minority community in India is not a monolithic community and is  divided world over. Fringe elements and their supporters should not be allowed to succeed irrespective of which religion they belong to as otherwise India will be the loser.

 

So we should lose our identity in the name of secularism?

Wait and watch, now Imam has issued Fatwa so be ready to ruled by IMAM BHAKTA in place of RAM BHAKTA. 

 

If I understand you correctly the only Ram Bhaktas are the BJP. Rest all are not Ram bhaktas. So  Kejriwal who I thought was a rambhakta was being supported by the Imam (unsolicited) now turns out that Kejriwal is ImamBhakta. Identity crisis at its best!!

 

No, I did not have Kejariwal in my mind at this point. He cannot be a bhakta of anyone but himself!

 

 

When polemics threatens to dominate encouraged by obduracy over reason and rationality I think it is time for me to wind up on this issue and before that I can't resist the temptation of quoting a two lines from a Tagore's famous poem : 

"Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way,

Into the dreary desert sand of dead habits.."

 

I second the opinion voiced by Chinmoy that it is indeed time to wind it up, before that I cannot help but share an awesome piece of creativity a friend shared it on the FB. No idea who wrote it or where it originated from, but it gives us plenty to think about the current situation in India, inequality, injustice to minorities etc. etc. Read and think!

Ant and Grasshopper - Indian Version of story - too good and fact so please read. You will love it

Original Story:

The Ant works hard in the withering heat all summer building its house and
laying up supplies for the winter. The Grasshopper thinks the Ant is a fool
and laughs dances plays the summer away. Come winter, the Ant is warm and
well fed. The Grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the
cold.

Indian Version:

The Ant works hard in the withering heat all summer building its house and
laying up supplies for the winter. The Grasshopper thinks the Ant's a fool
and laughs dances plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering Grasshopper calls a press conference and demands
to know why the Ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others
are cold and starving.

NDTV, BBC, CNN , Asianet show up to provide pictures of the shivering Grasshopper
next to a video of the Ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with
food.

The World is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be that this poor
Grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

Arundhati Roy stages a demonstration in front of the Ant's house.

Medha Patkar goes on a fast along with other Grasshoppers demanding that
Grasshoppers be relocated to warmer climates during winter .

Mayawati states this as 'injustice' done on Minorities.

The Internet is flooded with online petitions seeking support to the
Grasshopper

CPM in Kerala immediately passes a law preventing Ants from working hard in
the heat so as to bring about equality of poverty among Ants and
Grasshoppers.

Railway minister allocates one free coach to Grasshoppers on all Indian Railway
Trains, aptly named as the 'Grasshopper Rath'.

Finally, the Judicial Committee drafts the 'Prevention of Terrorism Against
Grasshoppers Act'[POTAGA] , with effect from the beginning of the winter..

Education minister makes 'Special Reservation' for Grasshoppers in Educational
Institutions in Government Services.

The Ant is fined for failing to comply with POTAGA and having nothing left
to pay his retroactive taxes, it's home is confiscated by the Government
and handed over to the Grasshopper in a ceremony covered by NDTV, BBC, CNN.

Arundhati Roy calls it 'A Triumph of Justice'.

Railway minister calls it 'Socialistic Justice'.

CPM calls it the 'Revolutionary Resurgence of the Downtrodden'

Many years later...

The Ant has since migrated to the US and set up a multi-billion dollar
company in Silicon Valley ,

100s of Grasshoppers still die of starvation despite reservation somewhere
in India ,

....AND

As a result of losing lot of hard working Ants and feeding the
grasshoppers, India is still a developing country...!!

 

@Kalyani I would add a post script running like this: Years after the member of the red-hot Communist Party who championed the sacred cause of grasshoppers happened to pay a casual visit on the sidelines of an official one being a heavyweight minister, to ant's establishment in Silicon Valley and the ant was proudly taking him around to show how its hard work enabled it to achieve and the great leader was seemingly in grudging admiration . He scornfully asked it about earnings it made out of its enterprise and promised it earnings 10 times its current earnings if the ant joins his party and let the grasshoppers as they are!!!!

@Kalyani I would add a post script running like this: Years after the member of the red-hot Communist Party who championed the sacred cause of grasshoppers happened to pay a casual visit on the sidelines of an official one being a heavyweight minister, to ant's establishment in Silicon Valley and the ant was proudly taking him around to show how its hard work enabled it to achieve and the great leader was seemingly in grudging admiration . He scornfully asked it about earnings it made out of its enterprise and promised it earnings 10 times its current earnings if the ant joins his party and let the grasshoppers as they are!!!!

 

HA HA HA! That is what does happen in India!!!!

After all grass-hopping too is an activity which works to the advantages of so many!

After all grass-hopping too is an activity which works to the advantages of so many!

 

Also, don't forget they are green and bigger than the ants ;)