Nobody should now doubt the true nature of party in power at center. The government is not of whole people and communities but of Rama Bhakts. Nobody but union minister Gadkadi has admitted this. He is certainly not a novice like saffron lady minister who talke of *jadda or Rama zaada and later accepted her mistake owing to uproar in parliament.
https://in.news.yahoo.com/this-is-a-govt-of-ram-bhakts--nitin-gadkari-054229817.html
That's very well,sir! You are very much entitled to your understanding as I am mine. I don't know of any such distinction which influenced incorporation of provisions of Directive Principles. In fact threre are a good number of them which did not and should not any controversy.
Now coming to examining critically the quality of the fundamental right of being treated equally before law which gets distorted in the absence of a common civil code. Interestingly the same political parties which are bitterly opposed to it were ardent supporters and present supporters were vehment opponents! When the first Nehru government with Ambedkar as his government's Law Minister led initiatives to reform personal laws they met opposition from hawks of both communities and if they had their ways in passing laws to give Hindu women the right to choose or devorce marriage partners, abolishing bigamy , polygamy among them that was mainly because of existence of influential sections of liberal and progressive Hindus. The Jana Sangh and RSS launched a virulent and vociferous attack on Ambedkar and their leaders claimed that as one born in a low caste hindu home Ambedkar had no business to override the HINDU SHASTRAS! Just think of it! In fact they called these reformative laws as an 'Atom bomb' on Hindu society. Those among us whose arguments have Taliban strains and elements in them as they misinterpret constitutional provisions, support suppression and denial of fundamental rights to a gender of a particular community, miss these obvious finer points.
T
Your concern for women of a particular community are well taken, but there should be a corresponding demand from a sizeable numbers within the community. It is only a matter of time before it happens. Pl wait for such time which hopefully is not very far away. Significant section of Hindus were prepared for reforms when laws for reform in Hindu community were passed in early 1950's and it should not be seen as one sided.Till such time constitutional guarantees are needed.
@Vijay I can't understand why you have given such a narrow spin on my views expressed so far as show of concern for women of a particular community when my posts had larger perspective and context of gender bias, human rights violation etc. How do we arrogate to ourselves the time of removing this prounced bias? How do you know that a majority of Muslim women don't want changes? How do you know that changes effected in Hindu personal laws are the results of such a demand from the majority? Society never prepares itself unless prodded and goaded by a select class of visionaries, revolutionaries and leaders of guts, iron will and honesty. Hope I am very clear as to the tone and tenor of the main line of my argument.
chinmoymukherjee wrote:@Vijay I can't understand why you have given such a narrow spin on my views expressed so far as show of concern for women of a particular community when my posts had larger perspective and context of gender bias, human rights violation etc. How do we arrogate to ourselves the time of removing this prounced bias? How do you know that a majority of Muslim women don't want changes? How do you know that changes effected in Hindu personal laws are the results of such a demand from the majority? Society never prepares itself unless prodded and goaded by a select class of visionaries, revolutionaries and leaders of guts, iron will and honesty. Hope I am very clear as to the tone and tenor of the main line of my argument.
I agree that debate and discussion on reforms in the whole nation irrespective of community must go on. So there is nothing wrong in taking up issue of emanicipation of women and other weaker sectrions in any community- majority or minority. But the fact remains that demand for reform must come mainly from within a community. Also the personal law based on community traditions cannot be tampered with so as to force the majority traditions on them. The current campaign for uniform personal law is an attempt to force majority traditions on minorities. This is despite the fact that even majority commuity does not have uniform law for itself.
chinmoymukherjee wrote:@Vijay I can't understand why you have given such a narrow spin on my views expressed so far as show of concern for women of a particular community when my posts had larger perspective and context of gender bias, human rights violation etc. How do we arrogate to ourselves the time of removing this prounced bias? How do you know that a majority of Muslim women don't want changes? How do you know that changes effected in Hindu personal laws are the results of such a demand from the majority? Society never prepares itself unless prodded and goaded by a select class of visionaries, revolutionaries and leaders of guts, iron will and honesty. Hope I am very clear as to the tone and tenor of the main line of my argument.
I have not given any narrow spin to your valued opinions. Before I could reply @ Ajmani has beautifully done so in his post. If visionaries were asking for stated changes in any community I would support but it is being sought by fringe elements only to score a point and show them their place in a hierarchial structure they want to create which is against the spirit of the constitution. Social changes take a long time and can succeed only if vast members of the target group are prepared to accept it. Indian society is still evolving in the modern sense where human beings will be treated as humans and not on basis of religion,cast,region and language. We are still far from such inclusive goal. But it is happening. Visionary leaders can hasten this process by positive policies. Today also votes are sought on polarization of society. we have to wait till change becomes inevitable.
Reading all the arguments here, I must say I am quite astonished at some of the esteemed members' stand that the a certain minority community is justifyingly a minority etc. etc. I am not very much aware of the statistics that have been given but I much prefer to refer to the realtime issues that I have actually seen among this community. Accept it or not, hard and glaring fact is that, these people simply DO NOT adhere to the rules and regulations that are followed by others in society. They flout the population concerns and give rise to children one after another, each couple having at least 5-6 children even today, in big cities, not just rural villages. They cannot provide for adequate medical care of the women and children, let alone provide proper nutrition but still do not follow family planning, simply because their religion does not allow them to use family planning safeguards. Once they were truly minority, now they are no longer a minority\, so why keep calling them and grant them special benefits when it is glaringly clear that they do not want to follow general society norms?
I also request other members to please do not post more statistics advising me to interpret them correctly. I am an alert and awake citizen and am very much aware of what is happening in the country!!
Kalyani Nandurkar wrote:Just to add on a few more points to what Kalyani has already explained well...Popultaion explosion in the particular minority community is at a lower starta where people do not care for anything except what the religious leader tells them. In my own town I know several people like my own fisherman who is barely 50 years old and has two wives 11 children and 18 grand children already. When I asked him how he could manage to take care of such a large family he simply says we have to accept what the lord gives and our leader says we shd never go in for family planning...This class is the most dangerous because they can be easily manipulated and used against the society. The government shd bring uniform civil code and also make primary education compulsory to make the community more aware otherwise it will be impossible to expect any positive changes..Reading all the arguments here, I must say I am quite astonished at some of the esteemed members' stand that the a certain minority community is justifyingly a minority etc. etc. I am not very much aware of the statistics that have been given but I much prefer to refer to the realtime issues that I have actually seen among this community. Accept it or not, hard and glaring fact is that, these people simply DO NOT adhere to the rules and regulations that are followed by others in society. They flout the population concerns and give rise to children one after another, each couple having at least 5-6 children even today, in big cities, not just rural villages. They cannot provide for adequate medical care of the women and children, let alone provide proper nutrition but still do not follow family planning, simply because their religion does not allow them to use family planning safeguards. Once they were truly minority, now they are no longer a minority\, so why keep calling them and grant them special benefits when it is glaringly clear that they do not want to follow general society norms?
I also request other members to please do not post more statistics advising me to interpret them correctly. I am an alert and awake citizen and am very much aware of what is happening in the country!!
Population explosion in certain communities is more because of lower economic and social status. Many efforts have been taen to uplift the lower castes in Hindus. But nothing has been done to improve conditions of minority. In fact, the minorities have been discriminated against subtly and teated as mere vote bank. The moment a Hindu scheduled caste changes his religion (Budddhism, Jainism and Sikhism all trated as Hindu), the sceduled caste benefits are snatched.
The only way to check polulartion is to improve the economic and social status/ conditions of the concerned backward religious communities. It is in this context that ormer P.M. Manmohan singh had commented that minorities have first claim on national assets but the communal forces misinterpreted him. .
A debate is purposeful and fruitful when participants have open minds and open to conviction - not a sterile one. In all my posts I have tried to be objective, drew on facts and applied my critical analysis to articulate my non-partisan stand on an issue whose wise handling could have galvanized the integrity of this nation and in the process tried to cut out woolly thinking, confusion and worse. If polygamy is a disgrace for human race and could be abolished in Iran Iraq,Egypt,Morocco, Jordan,Syria,Tunisia and even Pakistan what is the problem with us? Why are we so paranoid about 'Hindu Invasion' of Muslim personal. laws.Some bluff sophistry can never replace logical arguments. If Justice Baig, Justice M.C.Chagla, Aruna Asaf Ali, Shabana Azmi, Prof. Khuda Baksh and even the great poet Iqbal could be so vocal on the need for radical reforms in Muslim personal laws what is the problem with our dear Gulshanji. You simply can't create a class of second rate of citizen deprived of even their fundamental right of equality.There has been a question that if the demand has come from the majority . My request to them is go through the verdict of the apex court on Shah Bano case. All of us would be shamed to know that the exemplary courage displayed by a hapless,helpless Muslim woman was horrifically overshadowed by the shameless act of the government headed by Rajiv who could have - with the support of 400 odd MPs- heralded a new chapter but he covered himself by overriding SC judgement to appease a few obscurantists. Since then SC has been regularly reminding governments of the day to discharge their obligation to protect the honour and dignity of Muslim women to no avail and given to the patriarchal society that we are and whose echo has resonated in the views of a few in this forum too, I am not at all optimistic. The entire has been politicised to a ridiculous plane.
usha manohar wrote:Kalyani Nandurkar wrote:Reading all the arguments here, I must say I am quite astonished at some of the esteemed members' stand that the a certain minority community is justifyingly a minority etc. etc. I am not very much aware of the statistics that have been given but I much prefer to refer to the realtime issues that I have actually seen among this community. Accept it or not, hard and glaring fact is that, these people simply DO NOT adhere to the rules and regulations that are followed by others in society. They flout the population concerns and give rise to children one after another, each couple having at least 5-6 children even today, in big cities, not just rural villages. They cannot provide for adequate medical care of the women and children, let alone provide proper nutrition but still do not follow family planning, simply because their religion does not allow them to use family planning safeguards. Once they were truly minority, now they are no longer a minority\, so why keep calling them and grant them special benefits when it is glaringly clear that they do not want to follow general society norms?
I also request other members to please do not post more statistics advising me to interpret them correctly. I am an alert and awake citizen and am very much aware of what is happening in the country!!
Just to add on a few more points to what Kalyani has already explained well...Popultaion explosion in the particular minority community is at a lower starta where people do not care for anything except what the religious leader tells them. In my own town I know several people like my own fisherman who is barely 50 years old and has two wives 11 children and 18 grand children already. When I asked him how he could manage to take care of such a large family he simply says we have to accept what the lord gives and our leader says we shd never go in for family planning...This class is the most dangerous because they can be easily manipulated and used against the society. The government shd bring uniform civil code and also make primary education compulsory to make the community more aware otherwise it will be impossible to expect any positive changes..
Eleven is fine, in our area 14-18 is normal count of children in each household. Most women of a particular community are almost always pregnant in their conceivable age .
The burgeoning population is a phenomenon which needs a more scientific explanation than attempts at whipping up crude emotions on this issue. Let us not go aboard with claims that only members of a particular community are guilty of fathering dozens. You need not be a social scientist to see the apparent logical linkage between backwardness and the propensity to proliferate. And the question of rising numbers has to be address how the political parties of all hues have been treating the poor and disadvantaged Muslim people as vote banks in their ghetto politics. The Left in West Bengal systematically and actively aided infiltration across the border which has alarmingly altered the demographic character of border districts of the state. Now Mamata is giving stipends to imams.This is the kind of politics they are playing with them. I am sick to my stomach!
The burgeoning population is a phenomenon which needs a more scientific explanation than attempts at whipping up crude emotions on this issue. Let us not go aboard with claims that only members of a particular community are guilty of fathering dozens. You need not be a social scientist to see the apparent logical linkage between backwardness and the propensity to proliferate. And the question of rising numbers has to be address how the political parties of all hues have been treating the poor and disadvantaged Muslim people as vote banks in their ghetto politics. The Left in West Bengal systematically and actively aided infiltration across the border which has alarmingly altered the demographic character of border districts of the state. Now Mamata is giving stipends to imams.This is the kind of politics they are playing with them. I am sick to my stomach!
I agree with your views, Chinmoy! This problem of indiscriminate proliferation is not restricted only to one community, which of course, does so on religious basis purely and is not limited to just the educationally or economically backward classes. I have friends among the community, of my age or close to it thereabouts, and most of them have between 4-54 children. So the problem in that community is certainly not ignorance. Similar issue in other economically backward strata is purely financial reasons, the logic behind it being that higher the number of members in family, the more the number of hands to contribute to the income. This is true especially among the people who labour on daily wages. Among those, problem can be addressed with proper education and livelihood opportunities. As far as the other community is concerned, their imams and maulavis literally brainwash their flocks into giving birth to more and more children, all in a bid to far outnumber Hindus in number. This is not my imagination or careless comment, as some members would try to believe, but I have heard this fact for myself in a place called Nevasa, Ahmednagar district in Maharashtra. These things are openly spoken, practiced and followed, but should a Hindu speak against it, then it is a public outrage against them!
@Kalyani
Denial of basics in life does drive people to court extremism of all kinds. If any person despite receiving education - the only means of enlightening oneself - can't free himself or herself from the fundamentalism or radicalism then it can be safely said that it is an imperfect education. Talking about Muslim fundamentalism it is a clear as broad daylight that the entire world is threatened and unsurely grappling with it - groping in the dark in framing appropriate responses to combat it but that should not provoke revivalism in other religions. It has been cruelly tragic that since Independence our leaders have mortgaged their souls to rank rabid and communal elements of Muslim society under the most dangerous conviction that these maulanas, imams have enough sway on their community to herd their followers to polling-booths and casting their votes for candidates dictated by them. This is perversity at its worst. Indira Gandhi could take on even Nixon but not these regressive elements. The truth is that our dishonesty,deceit,spinelessness have thwarted all efforts to evolve a secular culture.We have not strengthened the hands of forces of liberal Islam.Centuries back Moghul emperor thought of religious syncretism by his Din-e-elahi experiment.Dara Sikoh could become a Sanskrit scholar. He translated Upanishad into Persian language. Today Imam of Jama Maszid commands greater respect than the icons I have mentioned in the eyes of our leaders. What a tragedy,my countrymen !!!
@Kalyani
Denial of basics in life does drive people to court extremism of all kinds. If any person despite receiving education - the only means of enlightening oneself - can't free himself or herself from the fundamentalism or radicalism then it can be safely said that it is an imperfect education. Talking about Muslim fundamentalism it is a clear as broad daylight that the entire world is threatened and unsurely grappling with it - groping in the dark in framing appropriate responses to combat it but that should not provoke revivalism in other religions. It has been cruelly tragic that since Independence our leaders have mortgaged their souls to rank rabid and communal elements of Muslim society under the most dangerous conviction that these maulanas, imams have enough sway on their community to herd their followers to polling-booths and casting their votes for candidates dictated by them. This is perversity at its worst. Indira Gandhi could take on even Nixon but not these regressive elements. The truth is that our dishonesty,deceit,spinelessness have thwarted all efforts to evolve a secular culture.We have not strengthened the hands of forces of liberal Islam.Centuries back Moghul emperor thought of religious syncretism by his Din-e-elahi experiment.Dara Sikoh could become a Sanskrit scholar. He translated Upanishad into Persian language. Today Imam of Jama Maszid commands greater respect than the icons I have mentioned in the eyes of our leaders. What a tragedy,my countrymen !!!
Summed it up precisely and accurately, Chinmoy!! What you mentioned is quite true, about revivalism of other religions in the face of Muslim fundamentalism, but I feel that, the politicians are largely to blame, more precisely congress which played its part of secular party with quite an evil disposition. ON one hand they kept beating their drums of secularism and being p[artial to Muslims all the time. And in the face of rising Muslim fundamentalism and the major political party favoring them, is it any surprise that other religions should feel threatened and so, gather their own forces? As to the icons you have mentioned, there is absolutely no doubt so as to cast aspersions on their intent and purpose, but sadly, ours may be the only country in world where history is neglected and forgotten and no lessons learned from it, on one hand. And on other hand, excerpts, in disjointed fractions, are taken from history and twisted and changed according to each one's own selfish ends.
Globally, minorities are at receiving end in all countries, even in USA which relatively is better than other countries. Somehow the majority community always gives itself the right to tell the minorities how they should live their lives.For example in India they cannot have a birth rate higher than majority community or government benefits should be distributed in exact proportion to their share of population. In some other country they cannot practice their religion or are denied many benefits. It is un understandable why majority community always finds itself threatened by minorities. In India if instead of minority bashing the majority community looked inwards and rectified the ills within itself that would be a great achievement and service to humanity. I have always found whenever i have taken up issues affecting our own religion they are always avoided by forum members, but otherwise they are full of advice to minorities. It is time that perceptions are not used to make decisions and form opinions and fall prey to scheming politicians. If one party sought minority votes the other is seeking majority votes - what is the difference? Isn't the party in power today compromising on Art. 370 for sake of power? Why a member opposed the submission of government authenticated data is not clear.Facts are important in arriving at right decisions. The flaks can start flowing in.
@Mr Vijay
The majesty of 'Principle of Majority' is a concept which forms the very bedrock of any institution of a democratic dispensation - be it judiciary, legislature or other domain. Otherwise we would be making open invitations to dictators to take over. The point of essence is the composition and character of the majority and more the underlying motives of the ruling majority. In India threre has been a very effective system of 'Checks and Balances' which has worked reasonably. It is true that ever since the Modi Government came the lunatic fringe of the Saffron Brigade have launched with full vigor to derail his development agenda making his developmental posturing somewhat hollow. Even with all those hoopla surrounding Prez Obama and the attendant bonhomie he has very curtly reminded PM Modi in his parting shot that social stability and cohesiveness is a sine qua non for any developmental exercise. It is pertinent here that the mandate this government received was on the back of long spells of malgovernance in the form of corruption ,policy paralysis, dynastic politics and nepotism. The BJP exploited that to the hilt and came to power and that too securing 31% of the votes cast. Therefore, it would be a self-delusion on the part of its leadership to go beyond the mandate of good governance and it sticks out a mile that vandalising church is a disgrace and raises a serious question on its intention. The only redeeming aspect is that our judiciary has been very vigialant and any attempt to subvert constitutional and legitimate rights would be effectively dealt with.
I agree with Chinmoy and others that majority is basis of democracy. Majority is of different kinds. Majority based on thought/ opinion is fluctuating and represents public opinion. Nothing wrong with this. Majority view is that holds authority in democracy. But then there is majority or minority based on sectional and community interests. This sort of majority or minority is of permanent nature. The so called conversions and ghar vapasi are intended to disturb the existing conditions based on religious community. In this context also, majority matters more. After all, in system of universal adult franchise, majority rules- be this based on opinion, thought or sheer numbers of a community.
Here is the issue of minority rights. Majority cannot oppress minority. This is also in company law. So far as majority rule is in interest of all citizens, all is well. Oppression of minority community by majority in any manner is negation of democracy. Not only majority rule but also equality before law, protection of citizenship rights of all irrespective of community, caste and gender are bedrock of any democracy, any civil society. It is in this context that secularism and socialism gain significance.
Gulshan Kumar Ajmani wrote:I agree with Chinmoy and others that majority is basis of democracy. Majority is of different kinds. Majority based on thought/ opinion is fluctuating and represents public opinion. Nothing wrong with this. Majority view is that holds authority in democracy. But then there is majority or minority based on sectional and community interests. This sort of majority or minority is of permanent nature. The so called conversions and ghar vapasi are intended to disturb the existing conditions based on religious community. In this context also, majority matters more. After all, in system of universal adult franchise, majority rules- be this based on opinion, thought or sheer numbers of a community.
Here is the issue of minority rights. Majority cannot oppress minority. This is also in company law. So far as majority rule is in interest of all citizens, all is well. Oppression of minority community by majority in any manner is negation of democracy. Not only majority rule but also equality before law, protection of citizenship rights of all irrespective of community, caste and gender are bedrock of any democracy, any civil society. It is in this context that secularism and socialism gain significance.
A very simple question sir, does this minority right apply in India only or any other countries in our neighborhood have any care for this. Leave apart countries but in our own country where Hindus are minority groups what do you suggest for their welfare. Why is all the emphasis on one particular community that otherwise is the majority all over the world and clearly breaking all the rules of humanity.
@gkajmani